Used Doosan Puma 240 for sale (306)

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2020, functionality: fully functional, turning length: 510 mm, turning diameter: 300 mm, spindle bore: 65 mm, spindle speed (max.): 6,000 rpm, travel distance X-axis: 205 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 105 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 560 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 30 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 36 m/min, Doosan LYNX 2100LYA – CNC Turning Center – 2020– Excellent Condition, Ready to Work! We offer for sale the Doosan LYNX 2100LYA CNC turning center, a high-performance machine for precise machining of rotational parts such as shafts, cones, spheres, and internal/external threads. The machine is in excellent technical condition, available immediately and ready for inspection. Key Features: High precision and reliability for both series and single-part production Djdpfx Asyftfioa Ejcd Large turret with 24 tools (including driven tools) Control system: Siemens Sinumerik 828D Powerful spindle and driven tools for high productivity Spindle bore 61 mm allows machining of various workpieces Technical Data: Max. turning length: 510 mm Max. turning diameter: 300 mm Clearance over bed: 600 mm Clearance over carriage: 400 mm Spindle bore: 61 mm Max. bar diameter: 51 mm Max. spindle speed: 6000 rpm Number of turret tools: 24 (driven tools included) Control system: SIEMENS Sinmerik 828D Year of manufacture: 2020 Dimensions (L x W x H): 2805 x 1582 x 1693 mm Weight: 3500 kg The machine is ready for immediate operation, connected to power, and available for inspection.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2019, functionality: fully functional, turning length: 510 mm, turning diameter: 300 mm, spindle bore: 61 mm, spindle speed (max.): 6,000 rpm, travel distance X-axis: 210 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 560 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 30 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 36 m/min, Doosan LYNX 2100LMA – CNC Turning Center – 2019 – Excellent Condition, Ready to Work! We offer for sale the Doosan LYNX 2100LM CNC turning center, a high-performance machine for precise machining of rotational parts such as shafts, cones, spheres, and internal/external threads. The machine is in excellent technical condition, available immediately and ready for inspection. Key Features: High precision and reliability for both series and single-part production Large turret with 24 tools (including driven tools) Control system: SIEMENS Sinumerik 828D Powerful spindle and driven tools for high productivity Spindle bore 61 mm allows machining of various workpieces Technical Data: Max. turning length: 510 mm Max. turning diameter: 300 mm Clearance over bed: 600 mm Clearance over carriage: 400 mm Dcedpfx Aoyftatja Esd Spindle bore: 61 mm Max. bar diameter: 51 mm Max. spindle speed: 6000 rpm Number of turret tools: 24 (driven tools included) Control system: SIEMENS Sinmerik 828D Year of manufacture: 2019 Dimensions (L x W x H): 2805 x 1582 x 1693 mm Weight: 3500 kg The machine is ready for immediate operation, connected to power, and available for inspection.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2013, 370mm max. machining diameter, 651mm swing over bed, 461mm swing over cross-slide, 712mm max turned length, 3500rpm spindle, 76mm bar capacity, 12 station turret, Dcsdpfxeyffz Ns Aa Eod 15kW spindle motor, FANUC Oi control, collet chuck , C axis & Milling, Tool presetter, Tailstock, coolant, swarf conveyor, parts catcher.

Condition: reconditioned (used), functionality: fully functional, fuel type: diesel, overall weight: 15,000 kg, chain condition: 90 %, Year of construction: 2019, operating hours: 4,350 h, Equipment: UVV, air conditioning, cabin, gripper hydraulics, hammer hydraulics, hydraulics, onboard computer, rubber tracks, Doosan DX 140LCR-5 with adjustable boom and HS 10 attachment, with 4,080 operating hours, year of manufacture 12/2019. Major service and statutory UVV inspection recently completed. Price and attachments on request. Dodpfoww T Aasx Aa Eocd

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2008, functionality: fully functional, CNC Fanuc 18i - MB TRAVELS: X axis: mm 850 Y axis: mm 700 Z axis: mm 750 Distance from spindle center to pallet top: mm 50 - 750 Distance from spindle nose to table center: mm 150 - 900 TABLE: Pallet size: mm 500 x 500 Pallet loading capacity: kg 500 Pallet surface: 24 – M16 x P 2.0 Pallet index degree: deg 1 SPINDLE: Max spindle speed: Rpm 14.000 Spindle taper: ISO 40 Max spindle torque (25% ED): Nm 220,5 FEEDRATE: Rapid traverse rate (X, Y, Z): m/min 60 Cutting feedrate: mm/min 30.000 AUTOMATIC TOOL CHANGER: Type of tool shank: MAS403 BT40 Tool storage capacity: 120 Max tool length: mm 400 Max tool weight: kg 10 Dcedpfxjvw Uyue Aa Eod Method of tool selection: Fixed address Tool change time (tool-to-tool): sec 1 Tool change time (chip-to-chip): sec 3,5 AUTOMATIC PALLET CHANGER: Number of pallet: 7 Type: Rotary shuttle Pallet change time: sec 7,5 Pallet rotation in loading station: deg 90 MOTOR: Spindle motor (30 min): kW 18,5 / 22 Feed motor (X, Y, Z, B): kW 7,0/7,0/7,0/2,7 MACHINE SIZE: Machine height: mm 3.000 Machine dimension: mm 5.600 x 2.700 Machine weight: kg 15.000 Machine equipped with: • High pressure through the spindle 35 bar • Chip conveyor • Instruction manuals and CE declaration

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2018, load capacity: 15 kg, arm reach: 900 mm, Cobot Doosan M1509 Dodpequqrcefx Aa Ejcd Payload: 15 kg Reach: 900 mm Repeatability: ±0.05 mm Item condition: New

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2019, load capacity: 6 kg, arm reach: 900 mm, Coobot Doosan M0609 Load capacity: 6 kg Reach: 900 mm Dcjdpsquqrvsfx Aa Ejd Repeatability: ±0.05 mm Condition: New

Condition: used, functionality: fully functional, Year of construction: 2022, operating hours: 125 h, load capacity: 3,000 kg, lifting height: 4,700 mm, free lift: 1,400 mm, fuel type: gas, mast type: triplex, construction height: 2,145 mm, power: 47 kW (63.90 HP), empty load weight: 4,850 kg, drive type: Treibgas, LPG forklift Dcodpfxox Aw S Ts Aa Eod Load center: 500 mm ISO class: ISO Class 3 = 2,500 - 4,999 kg Mast type: Triplex Transmission: Torque converter Speed class: 20 Condition: Like new Technical condition: New Front tire type: Superelastic Front tire condition: 80 - 100% Rear tire type: Superelastic Rear tire condition: 60 - 80% Sideshift, 3rd valve, 4th valve, Half-cab,

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2007, Multipallet Horizontal CNC Center Doosan HC500, year 2007. 7-pallet pallet system Fanuc 21i-MB control Spindle speed 8000 rpm ISO40 (BT) taper -X850mm -Y700mm -Z750mm 1-degree pallet indexing 60 tools Chip conveyor Through-spindle coolant (IKZ) Dedpfoycvpfex Aa Ejcd Machine fully operational, available for inspection in France, 01360 Loyettes.

Condition: used, fuel type: diesel, color: orange, lifting height: 4,050 mm, Year of construction: 2015, operating hours: 6,570 h, Year of manufacture: 2015 Empty weight: 6.000 kg Dimensions (LxBxH): 567 x 198 x 255 cm Engine type: Yanmar Yanmar 4TNV94L Dsdpfx Aex Hgn Usa Ejcd

Condition: used, machine/vehicle number: 26412, Year of construction: 2016, operating hours: 9,925 h, load capacity: 5,000 kg, lifting height: 4,690 mm, free lift: 1,410 mm, fuel type: diesel, mast type: triplex, construction height: 2,317 mm, Equipment: cabin, .: 26412 Equipment details: Year of manufacture: 2016 Load capacity: 5,000 kg Lifting height: 4,690 mm Read operating hours: 9,925 h Dsdpfjyg Df Asx Aa Eocd Free lift: 1,410 mm Mast type: Triplex Mast height: 2,317 mm Length/Width/Height: 3,300 / 1,460 / 2,185 mm Operating weight: 7,550 kg ---- Features: * Overhead guard * 3rd valve * 4th valve * Full cab * Heater * Front working lights * Rear working lights ---- Further equipment information: ---- Operating hours are generally read off the display. We are happy to offer you suitable transport. Another 250 - 300 forklifts, attachments, and sweepers immediately available for you. Of course, also for rent! We are also happy to buy your OLD one. Do you have any questions? You can reach us during our business hours from 7:30 am to 4:00 pm. We look forward to hearing from you! We speak English. Interim sale and errors for this offer are expressly reserved. For dealers, the equipment is sold as-is, not refurbished. All information subject to change and errors excepted.

Condition: used, machine/vehicle number: 26410, Year of construction: 2013, operating hours: 7,482 h, load capacity: 2,500 kg, lifting height: 3,190 mm, fuel type: diesel, mast type: simplex, construction height: 2,210 mm, Equipment: cabin, sideshift, Equipment details: Year of manufacture: 2013 Load capacity: 2,500 kg Lift height: 3,190 mm Hour meter reading: 7,482 h Mast type: Standard Mast height: 2,160 mm Dimensions (L/W/H): 2,500 / 1,170 / 2,210 mm Operating weight: 4,200 kg Features: * Overhead guard * 3rd valve * 4th valve * Full cabin * Heater * Front work lights * Rear work lights Attachments: * Side shifter * Fork positioner * Load backrest Additional device information: Dcedpfx Aeyg Dfpja Eod Operating hours stated are generally as read from the meter. We are happy to offer you suitable transport. 250 - 300 forklifts, attachments and sweepers available immediately. Rental options also available! We are also interested in purchasing your USED machine. Do you have any questions? You can reach us during business hours from 7:30 am to 4:00 pm. We look forward to hearing from you! We speak English. Interim sale and errors in this offer are expressly reserved. For trade buyers, the equipment is sold in its current condition, not refurbished. All information subject to change and errors excepted.

Condition: used, machine/vehicle number: 16786, Year of construction: 2021, operating hours: 1,918 h, load capacity: 2,500 kg, lifting height: 4,700 mm, free lift: 1,500 mm, load center: 500 mm, construction height: 2,200 mm, fork length: 1,200 mm, front tire size: 23/10-12, rear tire size: 18/7-8, overall weight: 4,854 kg, enginetype: Electric, manufacturer: Doosan Djdpfx Aajx Rk Elj Eecd

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2020, operating hours: 3,300 h, - USED - 4-AXIS HORIZONTAL MACHINING CENTRE WITH PALLET CHANGER X-AXIS TRAVEL: 1050 mm Y-AXIS TRAVEL: 900 mm Z-AXIS TRAVEL: 1000 mm DISTANCE SPINDLE NOSE-TABLE: 100 - 1100 mm RAPID FEEDS X-Y-Z: 60 m/min SPINDLE: 10000 rpm; 25-45 kW; 600 Nm; ISO 50 - BT PALLET: N.2 ; CONTINUOUS ; 630x630 mm Djdpjxvfuvsfx Aa Eecd MAX ADMITTED LOAD: 1500 Kg MAX MACHINABLE PIECE DIMENSIONS: ø1050 x 1350 mm TOOL MAGAZINE: CHAIN-TYPE ; 90 POS CONTROL UNIT: FANUC 31i WEIGHT: 18000 Kg OVERALL DIMENSIONS: 6520 x 3930 x 3495 mm ACCESSORIES: SWARF CONVEYOR ; TOOL SETTER

Condition: like new (used), Year of construction: 2019, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: MV0098-000226, travel distance X-axis: 520 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 360 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 350 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 48 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 48 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 56 m/min, nominal power (apparent): 16 kVA, controller manufacturer: FANUC, workpiece weight (max.): 200 kg, spindle speed (max.): 18,000 rpm, operating hours of spindle: 200 h, number of slots in tool magazine: 21, tool diameter: 200 mm, input voltage: 380 V, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, The machine is in perfect condition, with only 200 spindle hours since new. It never had a collision. It is possible to inspect the machine under power and verify its geometry. Free packaging and loading on truck. Included in the package: 3D probing system Tool measurement probe (the stylus is damaged — we can replace it) Through-spindle coolant (TSC) Chip conveyor 21-tool magazine Dcodsxpuwmepfx Aa Ejd

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2006, turning diameter 320 mm turning length 322 mm Dcodpoya Ih Iefx Aa Eod control Fanuc D -iT greates pass round over bed 510 mm x-axis 175 mm z-axis 330 mm spindle tunring speed 6.000 U/min spindle drive 15 kW number of tool places 12 Pos. auto power on hours ca. 43.947 In our assessment, the machine is in good used condition and can be inspected under power by appointment. Technical features & accessories: - Chip conveyor - Manual tailstock - Tool setter arm - Parts catcher with collection box Accessories, tools, and clamping devices shown are only included if specifically stated in the additional information. Technical data and specifications are subject to change without notice. Prior sale is reserved.

Condition: good (used), power: 102 kW (138.68 HP), Year of construction: 2015, operating hours: 4,330 h, Year of manufacture: 2015 Model year: 2015 Drive: Wheel GVW: 15.200 kg CE mark: yes Technical condition: good Visual appearance: good Doosan DX140W-3 – 2015 – 4,330 Operating Hours For sale: Doosan DX140W-3 wheeled excavator in good and well-maintained condition. Year of manufacture 2015 with only 4,330 operating hours. This machine is equipped with a 2-piece boom, providing excellent flexibility and reach, making it suitable for a wide range of excavation, infrastructure and demolition works. Fitted with a CW30 quick coupler and demolition/sorting hydraulic function, allowing immediate use with various attachments. Specifications: Make / Model: Doosan DX140W-3 Year: 2015 Djdpsygidqjfx Aa Escd Operating hours: 4,330 hrs Undercarriage: Wheeled Boom: 2-piece (VA boom) Quick coupler: CW30 Auxiliary hydraulics: Demolition / sorting function Engine: Doosan diesel engine Comfortable cab with excellent visibility A reliable and powerful excavator, known for its low fuel consumption and high operator comfort. Ready for work. Price and inspection upon request Transport can be arranged.

Condition: used, functionality: fully functional, Year of construction: 2017, operating hours: 7,058 h, load capacity: 2,500 kg, lifting height: 3,300 mm, fuel type: gas, mast type: telescopic, construction height: 2,180 mm, fork length: 1,200 mm, drive type: Treibgas, LPG Forklift ISO Class: ISO Class 2 = 1,000 - 2,500 kg Mast type: Telescopic Djdpsyadd Sefx Aa Eocd Transmission: Torque converter Condition: Operational and fully functional Technical condition: Good Front tires type: Superelastic Front tires size: 7.00-12 Rear tires type: Superelastic Rear tires size: 6.00-9 Description: In addition to this device, we offer more forklifts and warehouse equipment. All our machines are workshop-inspected and comply with FEM4.004 standards. Please contact us by email or phone. You can also find us at hsr-gabelstapler. We are also happy to purchase your used equipment, even if you do not buy a vehicle from us. Leasing and financing at attractive conditions are available on request. We will gladly provide you with professional and comprehensive advice about our vehicles. Sideshift, 3rd valve, rear work light, front work light, internal mirror, beacon light, single pedal, seat,

Condition: used, functionality: fully functional, Year of construction: 2019, operating hours: 319 h, load capacity: 3,500 kg, lifting height: 4,200 mm, fuel type: electric, mast type: telescopic, construction height: 2,800 mm, fork length: 1,200 mm, drive type: Elektro, Electric 4-wheel forklift Load center: 500 mm ISO class: ISO class 3 = 2,500 - 4,999 kg Mast type: Telescopic Dedpfx Asyadd Eea Escd Transmission: Electromechanical Condition: Operational and fully functional Technical condition: Standard Front tires type: Superelastic Front tires size: 23x10-12 Rear tires type: Superelastic Rear tires size: 18x7-8 Battery voltage: 80V Battery capacity: 775Ah Battery manufacturer: Exide Battery type: PzS Battery year: 2019 Description: In addition to this unit, we offer further forklifts and warehouse equipment. All our machines are fully workshop-inspected and certified according to FEM 4.004. Please contact us via email or phone. You can also find us at hsr-gabelstapler. Of course, we are also interested in purchasing your used equipment, even if you do not buy a vehicle from us. Hire purchase and financing at favorable terms are available upon request. We are happy to offer you professional and comprehensive advice on our vehicles. Side shifter, fork positioner, 3rd valve, 4th valve, rear work light, front work light, load guard, safety light, interior mirror, revolving beacon, single-pedal control, LED, seat,

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2017, operating hours: 524 h, load capacity: 3,000 kg, lifting height: 4,760 mm, free lift: 1,690 mm, fuel type: gas, mast type: triplex, construction height: 2,180 mm, drive type: Treibgas, LPG forklift Mast type: Triplex Transmission: Automatic Front tyres type: Superelastic Front tyres size: 650-10 Rear tyres type: Superelastic Rear tyres size: 28x9-15 Sideshifter, fork positioner, Power steering; wiper; operating weight with superstructure: 4798 kg Dodpfxjyfy Ahe Aa Eocd Front windscreen, half-cab,

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2023, operating hours: 482 h, lifting height: 4,900 mm, fuel type: electric, motor manufacturer: Elektro, gearing type: automatic, Bobcat D30NXS diesel forklift, year of manufacture: 12/2023, operating hours: only 482h!, rated load capacity: 3,000 kg, fork length: 1,200 mm, lift height: 4,900 mm, triplex mast, hydraulic side shift, engine: [45.6 kW/62 hp], weight: 4,901 kg, very good condition, fully operational and ready for immediate use! Dedpfx Aajyfvtij Ejcd We are happy to provide a leasing or financing offer upon request. Mr. Mihm (Tel. ) will be glad to assist you. For more information, please visit our website. Subject to prior sale and errors excepted. Power steering, protective roof = Further information = Lifting capacity: 3,000 kg Closed height: 230 cm For more information, please contact Tobias Ebert.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2021, operating hours: 831 h, Doosan DX 55-9C * Operating weight: 5.5 t * Transport length: 5.85 m * Transport width: 1.88 m * Transport height: 2.56 m * Bucket capacity min.: 0.18 m³ * Track width: 400 mm * Operator protection: Kb * Reach: 6.15 m Dcjdpfx Asullmdsa Ejd * Air conditioning * Permissible total weight: 5,500 kg * Engine: 41 kW / 56 hp * Blade support

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2020, Swing over bed 720mm, Swing over cross-slide 590mm, maximum machining diameter 481mm, maximum machining length 1275mm, bar capacity 102 mm, 12 station turret, spindle speed 2,800 rpm, Dcjdpfx Ajx Uy Haja Eod Fanuc I series control, tool setter, swarf conveyor, 3 jaw chuck,

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2008, functionality: fully functional, type of input current: three-phase, travel distance X-axis: 1,020 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 510 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 510 mm, workpiece weight (max.): 800 kg, number of slots in tool magazine: 30, controller manufacturer: Fanuc, total height: 2,700 mm, total length: 4,080 mm, total width: 2,400 mm, overall weight: 7,000 kg, table length: 1,200 mm, table width: 510 mm, controller model: Oi-MC, coolant supply: 15 bar, spindle motor power: 15,000 W, number of spindles: 1, rapid traverse Z-axis: 30 m/min, rapid traverse X-axis: 36 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 36 m/min, spindle nose: BT40, spindle speed (max.): 12,000 rpm, table load: 800 kg, Equipment: chip conveyor, rotational speed infinitely variable, Doosan NM510 Vertical Machining Centre Machine Type: 3 Axis Vertical Machining Centre Year: 2008 Control: Fanuc Series Oi-MC Condition: Very Good Includes Swarf Conveyor Chiller MCF20 Coolant Filter Autolube 6 x Tool Holders Notes Vice and clamping block in photos not included Technical Specifications Table Size: 1200 x 510mm Table Load: 800kg Travel (X-Axis): 1020mm Travel (Y-Axis): 510mm Travel (Z-Axis): 510mm Dedpfxsv Iq Ezo Aa Ejcd Max Spindle Speed: 12,000rpm Spindle Power: 18.5/15/11kW Spindle Taper: BT 40 Rapid Traverse (X/Y/Z): 36/36/30m/min Tool Storage Capacity: 30 tools Tool Change Time (T-T/C-C): 1.7/3.5sec Machine Dimensions: 4080 x 2400 x 2700mm Machine Weight: 7,000kg

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2011, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 1,270 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 670 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 625 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 36 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 36 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 30 m/min, feed length X-axis: 1,270 mm, feed length Y-axis: 670 mm, feed length Z-axis: 625 mm, nominal power (apparent): 37 kVA, controller manufacturer: Fanuc, controller model: i Series, workpiece weight (max.): 1,000 kg, total height: 2,815 mm, total length: 3,350 mm, total width: 3,760 mm, table width: 650 mm, table length: 1,300 mm, table load: 1,000 kg, overall weight: 8,500 kg, spindle speed (max.): 12,000 rpm, coolant supply: 20 bar, spindle nose: BT40, number of spindles: 1, number of slots in tool magazine: 30, tool length: 300 mm, tool diameter: 125 mm, tool weight: 8 g, input voltage: 400 V, type of input current: three-phase, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, Doosan DNM 650 Vertical Machining Centre – 2011 Fanuc i-Series Control | 12,000 RPM | 4th Axis Ready 2011 Doosan DNM 650 Vertical Machining Centre with Fanuc i-Series control. 12,000 RPM BT40 spindle, rebuilt spindle, 4th axis ready, 30-tool ATC, TSC, chiller & swarf conveyor. Available from Used Machine Tools Ireland. Manufacturer: Doosan Model: DNM 650 Machine Type: 3 Axis Vertical Machining Centre with 4th Axis preparation Year: 2011 Control: Fanuc i Series Condition: Very Good - spindle rebuilt in 2026 Availability: March 2026 We are pleased to offer this 2011 Doosan DNM 650 Vertical Machining Centre, a highly regarded and extremely rigid VMC, ideal for precision subcontract machining, toolmaking, and production environments. This machine is equipped with a Fanuc i-Series control and benefits from a newly rebuilt spindle, ensuring excellent performance, reliability, and long service life. The machine is prepared for a 4th axis with Nikken interface, making it an ideal platform for future rotary or multi-axis work. Key Specifications Manufacturer: Doosan Model: DNM 650 Year: 2011 Control: Fanuc i-Series Spindle Speed: 12,000 RPM Tool Taper: BT 40 X / Y / Z Travels: 1270 / 670 / 625 mm Table Size: 1300 × 650 mm Maximum Table Load: 1000 kg Rapid Traverse Rates: X / Y: 36 m/min Z: 30 m/min ATC: 30 Places Djdpfx Aaeyfh Ixs Eocd Max Tool Diameter: Ø80 mm with adjacent tools / Ø125 mm without Max Tool Length: 300mm Max Tool Weight: 8 kg Machine Dimensions (Approx): 2760 x 3350 x 2815mm Machine Weight (Approx): 8500kg Features & Equipment Newly rebuilt spindle Nikken 4th Axis preparation 30-station Automatic Tool Changer (ATC) 20 bar through-spindle coolant (TSC) Coolant chiller LNS swarf conveyor Data server / networking capability Fully enclosed, heavy-duty construction Please Note No tool holders, vices, or swarf bin included Ideal For Precision engineering CNC subcontract machining Automotive & aerospace components General and high-speed milling applications The Doosan DNM 650 is known for its exceptional rigidity, accuracy, and reliability, making it one of the most popular vertical machining centres in its class. Notes: *Specifications are given in good faith but not guaranteed*