Used Sanding Machines For Edge for sale (68,474)

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2003, Used machine Year of manufacture: 2003 Features and technical data: - Control system with LCD display Bedpfxswka Nyo Akmewp - Swiveling operator panel - Program memory - Manual pressure bridge adjustment - Feed via transport chain - Extendable workpiece support Jointing unit 1961: - 2 x 2.0 kW - Diamond jointing cutters for up-cut and down-cut operation Edge magazine 1903: - Support plate 820 mm, max. loading capacity 40 mm - Automatic feeding of coil and strip material Adhesive application system 1906: - Cartridge system with sensor-controlled nozzle - Automatic reloading - Use of PUR adhesives possible Pressure unit 1816: - With powered roller - Pneumatic control of the pressure unit End trimming unit 1918: - 2 x 0.22 kW - Swivels from 0 to 10°, pneumatically adjustable Milling unit 1942 MOT 2: - For flush, radius, and chamfer milling - Motorized adjustment - Air nozzle at milling unit Corner copying unit 1832: - Corner copying up to r = 3 mm, postforming up to r = 6 mm Radius scraper unit 1929 MOT 2: - For plastic edging up to 3 mm - Chip collection box for radius scraper Surface scraper 1964: - Process-controlled surface scraper - Air nozzle at surface scraper Buffing unit 1940 Edge thickness, coil material: 3 mm Edge thickness, strip material: 5 mm Max. edge thickness, corner copying: 3 mm Workpiece thickness: 6-45 mm Workpiece thickness, corner copying: 45 mm Min. workpiece length: 180 mm Feed speed: 8 m/min Distance, workpiece support: 470 mm Support plate diameter for edge material: 800 mm End trimming blade for coil material up to: 3 mm Heating up time: 3.5 min Jointing cutter power: 2 x 2 kW End saw power: 2 x 0.22 kW Milling station power: 2 x 0.6 kW Corner copying power: 0.22 kW Extraction nozzle jointing unit: 120 mm Extraction nozzle milling unit: 70 mm Extraction nozzle scraper unit: 70 mm Dimensions: 5,350 x 1,669 x 1,940 mm Weight: 1,200 kg Location: Röllbach Availability: short notice

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1995, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1995 Bwsdpfowpm Igex Akmjp Equipment and technical data: Glue tank with glue roller Pre-cutting knife 4 pressure rollers 2-motor cutting unit Radius milling unit Flush milling unit Radius scraper Edge thickness: 0.2 - 6 mm Workpiece width min.: 70 mm Workpiece height: 8-42 mm Feed speed: 12 m/min. Shipping dimensions: 370x100x125 cm Weight: 1330 kg Location: Röllbach Availability: short term

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1996, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1996 with heated infeed rail Gluing station with electronic temperature control and forward/reverse function Bodpfx Akekwg Tbomjwp - Cutting unit - Milling unit - Profiling blade - Cleaning station - Edge thickness 0.4 - 5 mm - Board thickness up to 50 mm - Part length min. 150 mm - Part width min. 60 mm - Workpiece thickness 8 - 50 mm - Feed rate 12 m/min L x W x H approx. 4000 x 1260 x 1600 mm (Width can be reduced to 800 mm for shipping by removing the extendable support) Availability: by arrangement Location: Hochheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1990, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1990 Equipment and technical data: - Automatic edge feeding - Cartridge glue system - Pressure unit with 4 rollers Bwedpfxeyncpvs Akmep - Cross-cut saw unit - Flush trimming unit - Combination trimming unit (flush/chamfer/radius) - Radius scraper - Buffing unit - Edgeband thickness: 0.3 - 20 mm - Maximum edgeband height: 66 mm - Minimum edgeband length: 200 mm - Feed speed: 8/16 or 12/24 m/min Availability: short notice Storage location: 63934 Röllbach

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2011, Used machine Year of manufacture: 2011 Condition: Machine completely overhauled and serviced Equipment and technical specifications: Infinitely variable feed speed: 10–18 m/min Edge Control 19 control system with 18.5" touchscreen color display Jointing milling unit Edge feeding Cartridge adhesive application station with sensing nozzle and automatic glue height adjustment Pressure unit End trimming unit Multifunctional milling unit Corner copying unit Radius scraper unit Surface scraper Buffing unit Workpiece thickness: 6–60 mm Edge thickness: 0.4–8 mm Minimum workpiece width: 60 mm Shortest workpiece length: 180 mm Dimensions: 5300 x 1500 x 1600 mm Weight: 2,200 kg Location: 65439 Flörsheim Bjdpfxjwka N To Akmswp Availability: short notice

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2026, New machine Year of manufacture: 2026 Bwedpfoy I Eqwjx Akmep Equipment and technical specifications: - Usable WORKING WIDTH mm: 950 - SANDING BELT LENGTH mm: 670/970 x 2150 - MAX. WORKPIECE THICKNESS mm: 160 - STEEL CALIBRATING ROLLER mm: 150 - SANDING PAD WIDTH mm: 50 - BELT MOTOR POWER HP: 10 - BELT SPEED m/s: 18 - FEED MOTOR POWER HP: 0.75 - Variable speed feed conveyor with infinitely adjustable speed, m/min: 4/20 - HEIGHT ADJUSTMENT MOTOR HP: 0.33 - Mechanical BELT OSCILLATION “ECO GEAR PATENT SYSTEM” - 1 pc. DRUM BRAKE for belt braking - Swiveling ROLLER for belt tensioning - 2 pcs. PRESSURE ROLLERS with rubber coating - EMERGENCY STOP BAR at the infeed - ELECTRONIC DISPLAY for workpiece thickness - 2 pcs. ROLLER TABLES each with 2 rollers at infeed and outfeed - 1 EXTRACTION CONNECTION with 160 mm diameter - AUTOMATIC TABLE POSITIONING BASIC MACHINE ACCORDING TO CE STANDARD PLEASE NOTE: New patented belt oscillation system 1. No valves 2. No light barrier 3. Not sensitive to dust 4. Energy-saving, environmentally friendly system The machine model with this system has been running non-stop since 2008 without lateral belt drift! Including special equipment: 11 kW motor Pneumatic sanding pad incl. feed-synchronized control Location: Flörsheim Availability: short notice

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1983, Used machine Bjdpsy Dkhgjfx Akmjwp Year of manufacture: 1983 Equipment and technical data: with 2 combination units with 2 contact rollers, 1 x 65° Shore, 1 x 85° Shore and 2 air sanding shoes Sanding width 1350 mm Sanding belt dimensions 1360 x 1900 mm Workpiece thickness max. 150 mm 1st unit with 15 kW 2nd unit with 15 kW Cleaning brush Roller table at the infeed Roller table at the outfeed Infinitely variable feed rate from 2.5 to 12.5 m/min Weight approx. 3700 kg Availability: short-term Location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1991, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1991 Max. workpiece height approx. 40 mm Min. workpiece length approx. 250 mm Min. workpiece width approx. 70 mm Feed rate approx. 11 m/min Ready for operation in approx. 4-5 min. Power consumption approx. 11 kW With heated infeed fence With quick-heating glue pot Pneumatic roller end trimming up to 3 mm With cross-cut saw for edge thicknesses up to 5 mm Milling station optionally equipped with combination indexable insert cutters for radius, straight, and chamfer milling Outrigger, foldable and extendable to the front Bwedpowka Tlsfx Akmjp With undercarriage With integrated extraction system Dimensions (L x W x H): 3600 x 1400 x 1200 mm Weight approx. 670 kg Availability: short-term Location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1998, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1998 Features and technical data: At 5,500 mm in length, the Quadromat is the shortest edge banding machine that enables complete processing of edge materials with an integrated workpiece return system. Not only are the longitudinal edges trimmed within the machine, but the end edges are also copied, thus completing the processing cycle. The finished workpiece is returned to the operator, eliminating the need for manual reworking. - With PLC control system supporting up to 20 processing programs Workpiece dimensions: Bsdjwkba Tspfx Akmswp - Minimum width: 60-80 mm (depending on edge material) - Minimum length: 150 mm - Workpiece thickness: 10 - 50 mm - Edging thickness: 0.4 - 12 mm - Minimum edging length: 400 mm Feed rate: 18 m/min Equipped with: - 2 jointing milling motors - Multi-functional milling unit (flush trimming, chamfer, radius) - Scraper - Cross-cut saw - 2 glue pots (for transparent and white glue) and 1 spare pot Compressed air connection: 7-10 bar Extraction connection: 160 mm Weight: approx. 2,400 kg Availability: short notice Location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1998, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1998 Proven quick heating tank; heating time approx. 5 minutes. Safety interlock for the application roller; the roller engages only after reaching operating temperature. Centrally height-adjustable upper pressure bar. Bwodpfx Aksw Tfw Hemsp Edge feeding and roll separation pneumatically controlled. Connected load: approx. 11.5 kW, heating power 4.5 kW, frequency inverter 300 Hz, 4 kVA. HF crosscut saw unit: electrically and pneumatically controlled, motor power 0.37 kW. Saw blade diameter: 100 mm HF flush milling unit: for radius, straight and chamfer milling. Crosscutting from rolls up to 3 mm. Edgebanding and crosscutting up to 5 mm. Minimum workpiece length: 260 mm Minimum workpiece width: 90 mm Workpiece thickness: Chamfer milling from 10 mm / radius milling from 13 mm / max. 45 mm Extendable workpiece support at front. Digital position display for feed height adjustment, edge thickness, and milling. With chassis. With heated infeed ruler. Compressed air connection: 6 bar Central extraction port: 100 mm Dimensions (L x W x H): 3115 x 1230 x 1200 mm Approx. 560 kg Availability: short notice Storage location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2018, Used machine Year of manufacture: 2018 Special feature: Machine for up to 100 mm edge height! Bwsdpfx Akowka S Ijmsp Condition: Factory-inspected by Lange Maschinenbau Equipment and technical data: - Machine table with 13 running rollers for improved workpiece guidance - Edge feeding, synchronous with belt feed - Edge thickness adjustable via digital counter - Pneumatic roller separation with knife (for cuttable edges) - Three pressure rollers - Belt feed: - 0.25 kW - approx. 1250 mm long - approx. 6.0 m/min - 50 mm wide toothed belt with thick, workpiece-friendly rubber top - Digital counter for height adjustment - Direct glue application to the workpiece: drip-proof glue pot with glue supply from below and rapid heat-up time after standstill - Flush cutting unit: - for front and rear workpiece edges - automatic sensing at the workpiece - pneumatic cutting with knife for cuttable edges - Flush trimming unit - with vertical sensing and horizontal guidance - reproducible setting using digital counters - 2 powerful 0.4 kW high-frequency motors - stepless speed adjustment from 4000 to 18000 rpm - Cutter Ø 70 mm, Z4, radius 2 mm/15° - central extraction nozzle Ø 100 mm - 2 chip extraction hoods with hose Ø 60 mm - Automatic height adjustment of the upper cutter with belt feed - Continuous workpiece support approx. 1800 mm long - Workpiece support rail, extendable by approx. 300 mm - Rotatable foil dispenser Ø: 800 mm - Workpiece width: min. approx. 80 mm - Workpiece thickness: 10 – 100 mm - Workpiece length: min. approx. 220 mm - Edge thickness: 0.4 – 2.0 mm - Roller separation: max. 1.0 x 55 mm, 2 x 45 mm - Glue pot heating capacity: 2.7 kW - Heat-up time: approx. 10 minutes - Working height: approx. 880 mm - Electrical connection: 400V, 50 Hz, 3Ph + N - Total connected load: 3.8 kW - Pneumatic connection: 6 Bar Dimensions (without foil dispenser): approx. 1800 x 700 x 1300 mm Weight: approx. 260 kg Availability: short-term Location: Flörsheim

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2023, New machine Year of manufacture: 2023 Single-sided automatic edge banding machine with pre-milling unit, hot-melt adhesive application on straight workpieces (EVA/PUR glue pot with emptying function optional), HF cross-cut saw station, HF milling unit, corner copying unit, chain feed, double roller upper pressure, extendable workpiece support rail, signal lamp for workpiece tracking and integrated length control for contactless operation of processing functions. Suitable for ABS, PVC, melamine, and solid wood veneer edging coils, as well as fixed lengths from 0.4–3.0 / 6.0 mm and workpiece heights from 8–60 mm. Feed speed: 10.0 m/min; 8.0 m/min with corner copying. ● 3 free slots for finishing units ● 10" color touch screen. Machine length: 4030 mm Workpiece thickness: 8–60 mm Min. workpiece width: approx. 75 mm Min. workpiece length: approx. 120 mm (min. approx. 200 mm with corner copying) Edge thickness: 0.4–3.0 mm Pre-milling unit chip removal: 0–2.0 mm, stepless adjustment Total connected load: 7.5 kW – 400 V Bedpfx Aow I U Drekmewp Feed speed: 10 m/min; 8 m/min Pneumatic connection: 6 bar Net weight: 1050 kg Options: Surcharge for radius scraper unit with air nozzle + extraction Surcharge for surface scraper unit + extraction Surcharge for buffing unit EVA/PUR glue pot with emptying function Surcharge for diamond tools, height = 65 mm for pre-milling unit Riepe spray system (anti-adhesive) at the pre-milling unit Riepe spray system (cleaning spray before buffing unit) Pipe system with 90° bend + manual slide valve, installed on machine, D=200 mm Availability: short-term Location: Hochheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1989, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1989 Condition: Function tested Equipment and technical data: Bwodpfxsw I U E Aj Akmjp Max. edge thickness: 20 mm Max. edge height: 51 mm Max. thickness of coil material: 3 mm Min. workpiece length: 140 mm Min. workpiece width: 60 mm Glue system: 1906 cartridge Pressure unit Milling unit 1920 for flush milling up to 20 mm and chamfer milling Required space (LxWxH): 3150x1800x1375 mm Weight approx.: 800 kg Location: Flörsheim Availability: Short-term

Year of construction: 1991, condition: used, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1991 With 4 sanding units Workpiece dimensions: Thickness min. 10 mm max. 150 mm Width min. 10 mm max. 180 mm Length min. 190 mm, max. unlimited Bodpfxjw Tfxdo Akmjwp Abrasive belt dimensions: 200 x 1800 mm Extraction ports 2 extraction ports 80 mm 4 extraction ports 120 mm Required air velocity: 30 m/sec L x W x H: 3400 x 1150 x 1805 mm Weight: 2400 kg Availability: short term Location: Odenwald

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2006, Used machine Bjdpfxewka H Sj Akmswp Year of manufacture: 2006 Condition: completely overhauled Equipment and technical data: - fitted with new glue application system - manually adjustable infeed fence - milling unit 1961 - edge feeder 1903 - glue application station 1906 with tracking nozzle - pressure unit 1816, pneumatic - end trimming unit 1822 - milling unit 1942 M for radius, chamfer, flush trimming - complete air nozzle - scraper unit 1929 - chip collection box - surface scraper 1964 - extraction hood set - complete safety covers - total length: 5,291 mm - workpiece thickness: min. 6 / max. 50 mm - edge band thickness depending on configuration: 0.4–5 mm - max. edge band height: 55 mm - minimum edge band strip length: 350 mm - max. edge band overhang/height per side: 3 mm - minimum workpiece width: 60 mm - minimum workpiece length: 180 mm - feed speed: 12.5 m/min - extraction: - jointing/milling unit: 900 m³/h - milling unit: 280 m³/h - scraper unit: 280 m³/h - static vacuum: - jointing/milling unit: 1,490 Pa - milling unit: 1,650 Pa - minimum air velocity: 20 m/sec - jointing/milling unit connection: 70 mm - scraper unit connection: 70 mm - compressed air: 6 bar Availability: short notice Location: Röllbach

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2008, Used machine Bwjdpfow Nadgox Akmsp Year of manufacture: 2008 Equipment and technical data: Gluing, max. 8 - 55 mm Incl. rotating control panel HF joining unit, 2-motor Incl. quick-heating tank, interchangeable, Teflon-coated Incl. electronic positioning of the pressure rollers Incl. swiveling double miter saw unit Incl. flush trimming unit Incl. program-controlled chamfering, radius and corner copying unit with nesting package Incl. radius pull blade with nesting package Incl. surface pull blade Incl. grooving unit Incl. edge trimming unit Incl. spray unit Availability: short notice Location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1981 Features and technical data: Motor 5.2/7.5 kW, pole-changeable 750/1500 rpm Belt speeds: 11 and 22 m/sec With attached blower motor 2.2 kW (2840 rpm, air flow 2400 m³/h) Table size: 2900 x 1400 mm Usable working length: 2700 mm Bjdpfx Akex H U Nmjmswp Table stroke: 320 mm Belt dimensions: 7800 x 150 mm Including pneumatic pressure shoe with belt brake Extraction nozzle: 180 mm Air requirement: 2 l/min at 6 bar Weight: 1300 kg Availability: short notice Location: Röllbach

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2004, Used machine Year of manufacture: 2004 Equipment and technical data: Bedpfxovymdqe Akmewp Edge feed for rolls and strips Joining milling unit with 2 milling heads Adhesive application system cartridge 3-roll printing unit Cross-cut saw unit Radius milling unit Radius scraper unit Corner copying unit Surface scraper Buffing unit Workpiece thickness min./max.: 6/50 mm Edging thickness: 0.4-15 mm Edging height max.: 55 mm Edging length strip min.: 350 mm Edging projection per side max.: 3 mm Workpiece width min.: 60 mm Workpiece length min.: 180 mm Feed speed: 12.5 m/min. Machine dimensions L x W x H 6480 x 1250 x 1690 mm Availability: short term Storage location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2009, Used machine Year of manufacture: 2009 Single-sided automatic edge banding machine with CNC control, 10" touch screen Industrial conveyor chain 1 1/4" Joint milling unit FI-502 Glue application unit VC-710 End trimming unit IN-801 Top and bottom flush trimming unit RS-100 2 motorized multifunction profiling units - contour milling unit CR-202 (FAST system with 4 standard positions) Scraper unit RBK-503, NC 2 positions Flat scraper RCC-701 Workpiece thickness: 10-65 mm Max. workpiece height with contour milling unit (depending on profiles): 35-65 mm Edge thickness from roll: 0.4-3 mm Edge thickness from strip material: 0.4-22 mm (depending on unit) Minimum workpiece length: 140 mm Minimum workpiece width (with length 140 mm): 85 mm Minimum workpiece width (with length 250 mm): 50 mm Feed speeds: 10-14-18-20 Central extraction connection: 200 mm Extraction connection, edge banding: 80 mm Extraction connection, joint milling: 120 mm Bodev R Nk Uepfx Akmswp Glue pot capacity: approx. 3 kg Heat-up time at half fill: approx. 10 min Length: 6000 mm Width: 1780 mm Height: 1770 mm Machine is offered without the workpiece return unit shown in the pictures Availability: short-term Location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2010, Used machine Year of manufacture 2010 With joining unit and corner rounding unit Bwsdpfsw I H Rkox Akmop Control panel with LCD display and keypad Joining unit with 2 counter-rotating diamond cutters With edge feeder for roll and strip material With glue roller and glue unit With pre-trimming from the roll With pressure unit With trimming unit with pulling trimming cut With flush and radius trimming unit Corner rounding unit for front edges Manual unit adjustment Edge thickness 0.4-5 mm Workpiece height 8-60 mm Min. workpiece width 70 mm Min. workpiece length 140 mm Feed speed 11 m/min With radius scraper unit With flat scraper With polishing unit Extendable workpiece support Extraction connection 120 + 2 x 80 mm Weight approx. 990 kg L x W x H 4550 x 1550 x 1100 mm Availability: Short-term Storage location: Flörsheim

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2013, Used machine Year of manufacture: 2013 Very well-maintained machine Equipment: - Machine table with 13 running rollers for improved workpiece guidance - Edge feed, synchronized with the belt feed - Edge thickness adjustable via digital counter - Pneumatic roller separation with blade (for cuttable edges) - Three pressure rollers - Belt feed 0.25 kW; approx. 1250 mm long; approx. 6.0 m/min; 50 mm wide toothed belt with thick, workpiece-friendly rubber cover. Digital counter for height adjustment - Direct glue application to the workpiece: leak-proof glue pot with glue reservoir from below and fast heat-up time after machine downtime - Flush-trimming unit for workpiece front and rear edge, automatic scanning on the workpiece, pneumatic trimming with blade for cuttable edges - Flush-milling unit with vertical tracking and horizontal guidance, reproducible settings via digital counters, 2 powerful 0.4 kW high-frequency motors, infinitely variable from 4,000 to 18,000 rpm, cutter Ø 70 mm, Z4, radius 2 mm/15°; central extraction port Ø 100 mm, 2 chip extraction hoods with hose Ø 60 mm - Automatic height adjustment of the upper milling cutter with the belt feed - Continuous workpiece support approx. 1800 mm long, workpiece support rail extendable by approx. 300 mm - Rotatable film disc Ø 800 mm Technical details: - Minimum workpiece width approx. 80 mm - Workpiece thickness 10 – 50 mm - Minimum workpiece length approx. 220 mm - Edge thickness 0.4 – 2.0 mm - Roller separation max. 1.0 x 55 mm, 2 x 45 mm - Heating capacity glue pot 2.7 kW - Electrical connection 400 V, 50 Hz, 3Ph + N - Total connected load 3.8 kW - Heat-up time approx. 10 minutes - Pneumatic connection 6 bar - Working height approx. 880 mm Bedpfxozc Agkj Akmjwp - Dimensions approx. 1800 x 700 x 1300 mm without film disc Ø 800 - Net weight approx. 260 kg Availability: short notice Location: Flörsheim

Year of construction: 1994, condition: used, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1994 Equipment and technical specifications: Working width: 300 mm Sanding belt oscillation: mechanical Roller guide: rubber-coated Sanding unit: with sanding shoe Feed speed: 2-stage Feed direction: reversible (forward/reverse) Motor start: star-delta Power supply: 380 V Weight: approx. 450 kg Bsdpfx Ajxq Ua Rjkmswp Availability: short-term Location: Baden-Württemberg

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1983, Used machine Year of manufacture: 1983 for pre-coated edge material Edge material up to 1.3 mm with roller guillotining with flush trimming with knife with top/bottom flush and bevel milling with HF motors Location: Röllbach Availability: short term Bwsdoxc Rl Hepfx Akmop

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2020, Used machine Year of manufacture: 2020 Features: - Aggregate control via touch-screen - Joint milling unit - Glue pot - End trimming unit - Radius milling unit - Radius scraper unit - Flat scraper unit - Buffing unit - Spraying unit (front and rear) Location: Rhineland-Palatinate Bodjx Enquopfx Akmowp Availability: By arrangement Sale on behalf of customer. Details provided without guarantee.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2026, Professional EBM 360B table edge banding machine. The machine is designed for edge banding of both straight and curved elements. Ideal edge banding machine for medium and large workshops and carpentry shops. Pneumatic shears for cutting the edge (adhesive tape). Solid, strong construction. This machine feeds, cuts and glues the edge. The tape feeding and cutting sensor automatically takes the cut tapes from the container. Easy to use and conveniently placed control panel. Work comfort and failure-free operation of the machine are ensured. The indisputable advantage is the simple construction and intuitive operation. TECHNICAL PARAMETERS EDGE WIDTH 10-60 (68) mm EDGE THICKNESS 0.3-3 mm MINIMUM WORKING RADIUS 20mm MAX. PERMITTED CUTTING WIDTH 50 mm HEATING POWER 2 kW POWER SOURCE 400V MOTOR Bwsdpfx Aozhtt Rokmep 0.18 kW, 0.37 kW, 0.4 kW FEED SPEED 0-14 m/min. AIR PRESSURE 6 BAR DIMENSIONS 1550 x 800 x 1000 WEIGHT 185 kg PLEASE NOTE!!! This machine is a return item, having undergone warranty repairs. It is in working order and complete. No warranty and no returns!!!