Used Deckel Machining Center - Universal for sale (68,170)

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2008, x-travel 1250 mm y-travel 1000 mm z-travel 1000 mm control Matrix max. workpiece diameter 1060 mm workpiece length - max. 1000 mm chucking diameter 800 mm type of pallet-changer 2 St. milling head speed 10000 U/min table turning speeds 500 U/min Bdedpjywntmefx Aa Deb numbers of tools in magazin 120 tool taper 50 ISO table drive 37 kW milling drive 37 kW total power requirement 110 kW weight of the machine ca. 37 t dimensions of the machine ca. 5 x 4 x 3 m Milling and turning machine with 5 axes. Control: Mazatrol Matrix. Machine has coolant through spindle with mist exhaust and is prepared for Renishaw OMP.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2006, x-travel 1250 mm y-travel 1000 mm z-travel 1000 mm control 640MPlus max. workpiece diameter 1060 mm workpiece length - max. 1000 mm chucking diameter 800 mm type of pallet-changer 2 St. Bjdpfx Aeywntaea Dedb milling head speed 10000 U/min table turning speeds 500 U/min numbers of tools in magazin 80 tool taper 50 ISO table drive 37 kW milling drive 37 kW total power requirement 110 kW weight of the machine ca. 36 t dimensions of the machine ca. 5 x 4 x 3 m Milling and turning machine with 5 axes. Control: Mazatrol 640 MPlus. Machine has coolant through spindle with mist exhaust and is prepared for Renishaw OMP.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1988, x-travel 600 mm y-travel 450 mm z-travel 450 mm spindle turning speed range 20 - 6300 U/min Number of tools 30 St. tool taper SK 40 total power requirement 17 kW weight of the machine ca. 4 t Bdjdow Inr Aepfx Aa Djb dimensions of the machine ca. 3,2 x 3,4 x 2,2 m

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2012, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 630 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 630 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 830 mm, torque: 80 Nm, controller manufacturer: Siemens, controller model: 840 D SL, table width: 500 mm, table length: 400 mm, spindle speed (max.): 16,000 rpm, spindle motor power: 40,000 W, number of spindles: 1, number of slots in tool magazine: 54, mount diameter: 63 mm, Year of manufacture: 2012 Control: Siemens 840 D SL Spindle: SCT63 16000 rpm, 40 kW, 80 Nm Tool clamping system: HSK 63 Magazine / stations (options): Chain / 54 Rotary table: 360,000° X 0.001° Coolant system: Knoll VRF 250; internal coolant supply 50 bar (work area rinsing) Working area XYZ (mm): 630 / 630 / 830 Pallet size (mm): 500 x 400 Bdodpfx Aeywkbgea Dob Workpiece clamping: 60 bar Additional options, features: Receiver for wireless measuring probe (RENISHAW); Pneumatic support control at the workpiece setup station; Automatic setup process; Automatic removal process; Status indicator light; Scraper belt conveyor for wet machining;

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2020, functionality: fully functional, 1.753 1 x MAZAK VARIAXIS i-800 1 x MAZAK VC PRIMOS 400 L 1 x CELLRO ELEVATE with FANUC MAZAK VARIAXIS i-800 5-Axis Machining Center Year of Manufacture October 2020 Commissioning 2021 Smooth X Control Pallet Changer, 2 Pallets Travels: X-Axis: 730 mm Y-Axis: 800 mm Z-Axis: 560 mm A-Axis: -120° to +30° C-Axis: ±360° Max. Spindle Speed: 10,000 rpm SK-50 Tool Holder, DIN 69871 -Tool Magazine for 120 Tools -Prepared for Hydraulic Clamping incl. Pallet Clamping Function -Automatic Pallet Changer -Electronic Handwheel -Knoll coolant system KF400/2300 -Paper belt filter -High-pressure pump 70 bar -Knoll chip conveyor -Renishaw NC4 laser -Air blow-off on the NC4 laser -Mazak Monitoring B, incl. Renishaw RMP600 probe -Robot interface -Various Software Options MAZAK VC PRIMOS 400 L Vertical Machining Center Year of manufacture 2020, installed 2021 Mazatrol Smooth C Travels X: 500 mm Y: 400 mm Z: 350 mm Table size: 600 x 400 mm Max. table load: 300 kg Milling spindle AC 11 kW Max. spindle speed: 12,000 rpm 14 tools, BT30 -2 hydraulic connections -Automatic door -Oil mist lubrication -Signal light -Airflow through rotating spindle -Mazak Monitoring B, incl. Renishaw OMP40 probe Bedpfx Aoywii Nea Dedb -Robot interface -Various Software Options CELLRO ELEVATE E-110-165 Robot cell with parts storage Elevate W 2000 mm – H 4000 mm Fanuc robot R-2000 165F iC Fanuc robot max. payload: 165 kg max. handling weight: 90 kg Automatic gripper change system Manual gripping force control Workpiece rotary station Workpiece measuring station SPC trays for measuring parts during the process Air blow-off station Various trays 1600 x 550 mm Loading with extendable tray Interface for 2 Variaxis i-800s and one VCP400L

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2020, Two machines from year of manufacture 2020 (G5 i) and one machine from 2022 (G5) available. Includes hydraulic unit, oil cooler, and air dryer Initial commissioning of the 2020 machines in March/May 2022, the 2022 machine in March 2023. The machining center can be used for grinding, milling, and drilling of metallic workpieces. A standard integrated dressing unit is included. This machining center is used for hard grinding and finish boring of holes in discs and flanges of precision planetary gear units. Machine Description: Makino Model G5 i Grinder Universal Machining Center With creep feed grinding function Makino Professional 5 Control System Machine Specifications (according to manufacturer): Travel: Column X-axis: 520 mm Spindle Y-axis: 560 mm Table Z-axis: 600 mm Spindle center to top of pallet: 80 – 640 mm Spindle nose to center of pallet: 70 – 670 mm Feed rates: Bsdoywgh Njpfx Aa Dodb Smallest increment: 0.001 mm Jog operation: 1 - 8,000 mm/min Machining feed: 1 - 48,000 mm/min Rapid traverse: 48 m/min Spindle: Spindle taper: ISO 40 Spindle motor (high torque): 18.5 / 22 kW AC Speed (2 ranges): 50 – 12,000 rpm Automatic tool changer Machine weight: 8,450 kg Controlled Axes: 5-axis simultaneous Special equipment for VIPER grinding: Dressing unit Rotary dressing unit (quick-change) – electric, incl. holder (52 mm) Electrical interface for dresser Workpiece clamping: Erowa ER-029392 Power Chuck Clamping/release control including pressure display Coolant preparation and supply: Water-based coolant filtration system Transfer tank High-pressure pump Self-tilting chip bin Coolant supply bridge Extraction unit including ductwork Makino interface for coolant system Makino interface for extraction system Coolant monitoring (pressure, flow, temperature) Programmable coolant nozzle (PCN) – through spindle, nozzle, base, and shower PCN nozzle assembly Other: Automatic workpiece measuring device (RMP600) Point Master unit (manual measuring probe) Bench Master Air dryer Special I/O interface Machine anchoring set FANUC warranty (2 years) C&F costs UK/Euro transformer High-speed rotary work spindle (100 rpm) Time-delayed splash guard Oil lubrication system for ballscrews and linear guides Programmable coolant nozzle for grinding wheels (PCN) Reinforced splash guard door Automatic front door (AWC) with light curtain Signal lights (3-color) Halogen work lamp (1 pc) Safety interlock package Optional equipment: Easy-Grind Max NC incl. HMI and Machine Manager Scale system X, Y, Z axes (0.05 μm) Switching the display language from English to German Freewheel function of rotary axes during operation Project management by NCMT and Melior Motion Easy-Grind Max+ (single station solution, custom configured)

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2004, x-travel 3.000 mm y-travel 1.000 mm z-travel 1.000 mm surface area 1.035 x 3.500 mm control Heidenhain 530i round table Ø500 mm / 360° mm/° NC swivel head +/-90 ° spindle tunring speed 9.000 U/min tool taper SK 40 number of tool places 48 Pos. Bsdoxx A Ncjpfx Aa Djdb auto power on hours ca. 27.834 h spindle hours ca. 12.357 h In our assessment, the machine is in good used condition and can be inspected under power by appointment. Technical features & accessories: - NC swivel head - Rotary table - Wireless probe - Direct linear encoder - Internal coolant supply 40 bar Accessories, tools, and clamping devices shown are only included in the scope of delivery if specifically stated in the additional information. Technical data and specifications are subject to change without notice. Prior sale is reserved.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2017, x-travel 1.100 mm y-travel 610 mm z-travel 610 mm Control Heidenhain table dimensions 1.100 x 610 mm number of tool places 40 Pos. tool taper SK 40 Bjdpjyn R Ndsfx Aa Dedb auto power on hours ca. 20.432 h spindle hours ca. 6.642 h Die Maschine befindet sich unserer Einschätzung nach in einem guten gebrauchten Zustand und kann nach Terminvereinbarung unter Strom besichtigt werden. The main spindle was overhauled. Zubehör, abgebildete Werkzeuge und Spannmittel gehören nur zum Lieferumfang wenn dies in den Zusatzinformationen vermerkt ist. Aenderungen und Irrtuemer in den technischen Daten und Angaben sowie Zwischenverkauf vorbehalten!

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2018, x-travel 750 mm y-travel 660 mm z-travel 650 mm Bdsdpfx Aaoyrt A Ij Djb Control Siemens spindle tunring speed 16.000 U/min tool taper HSK 63 The machine was used for machining aluminum and, in our assessment, is in good used condition. It can be inspected under power by appointment. Technical features & accessories: - Twin spindle - 5-axis - Pallet changer Accessories, tools, and clamping devices shown are only included if explicitly stated in the additional information. Technical data and specifications are subject to change without notice. Prior sale is reserved.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2010, x-travel 500 mm y-travel 700 mm z-travel 500 mm A-axis 240 (-120/+120) ° C-Axis 360 ° control Siemens 840 D faceplate diameter 440 mm T-slot - width 14 mm T-slot - distance 75 mm max. table load 400 kg Bedpoxq R E Njfx Aa Dsdb max. turning speeds 20.000 min/-1 tool taper HSK 63 A workpiece length 330 mm tool diameter 125 mm change-time chip to chip 4,5 sec weight of the machine ca. 10,5 t dimensions of the machine ca. 2,5 x 5,2 x 3,5 m

Condition: repair required (used), Year of construction: 2002, operating hours: 54,981 h, functionality: not functional, machine/vehicle number: 1114 000273 3, travel distance X-axis: 1,080 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 30 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 30 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 30 m/min, feed rate X-axis: 15 m/min, feed rate Y-axis: 15 m/min, feed rate Z-axis: 15 m/min, controller manufacturer: Haidenhain, controller model: HEIDENHAIN TNC 530, total height: 2,500 mm, total length: 6,200 mm, total width: 3,802 mm, table width: 795 mm, table length: 1,500 mm, table load: 900 kg, overall weight: 9,500 kg, operating hours of spindle: 14,170 h, spindle nose: SK40, number of slots in tool magazine: 32, tool weight: 8,000 g, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, Technical Details Machine: DMG DMU 100T Year of manufacture: 2002 CNC Control: Heidenhain TNC 530 with DMG-specific MillPlus IT user interface Spindle taper: SK40 Operating hours: 54,981 h Travel distances: X-axis: 1,080 mm Y-axis: 710 mm Z-axis: 710 mm Weight: approx. 9,500 kg Additional equipment: NC rotary table (Nikken) Large NC rotary table Tailstock Handwheel Inspection An inspection under power can be arranged at any time by appointment. Condition: Used condition consistent with age and prior usage Known defects: X-axis ball screw worn / overhaul required Y-axis suspected cable or motor damage Bedpfx Aasxxamxo Dedb Repairs completed: 2017 – Handwheel retrofit kit 2022 – Replacement of chip conveyor auger 2024 – New cylinder/ linear guide for tool magazine 2024 – New screen Further defects cannot be ruled out Important note / exclusion of liability The machine is explicitly sold as defective, without warranty, without guarantee and under exclusion of any liability for material defects. All technical information has been provided to the best of our knowledge but is non-binding. No liability is assumed for completeness, correctness, or up-to-dateness of the information. The sale is made as inspected and any subsequent negotiations are excluded.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1997, CNC milling machine Deckel Maho DMU 80 T Control: Heidenhain TNC426 Spindle speed: 20-6300 rpm Feed rate X, Y, Z: 20-10000 mm/min Rapid traverse X, Y, Z: 15000 mm/min Bedpfxox Tapfe Aa Dsdb Work envelope: X: 800 mm, Y: 650 mm, Z: 550 mm Tool holder: SK40 DIN 2079 Draw bolt DIN 69 872 Tool changer: 25 positions Max tool diameter: 160 mm Max tool extension from spindle nose: 315 mm Work table: Dimensions: 1100x600 mm T-slots: 9 x M14 Permissible workpiece weight: 500 kg Transport data: Weight: 5800 kg Dimensions (L x W x H): 3.05 x 2.40 x 2.45 m

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2011, operating hours: 11,000 h, CNC controller: HEIDENHAIN iTNC530 X-axis travel mm: 450 Y-axis travel mm: 580 Z-axis travel mm: 400 C-axis degrees: 360° (0,001°) A-axis degrees: +10° -110° Worktable Table dimensions mm: 400x400 Max. workpiece weight kg: 200 Spindle speed rpm: 42.000 Bjdpsyv H I Hefx Aa Dsdb Tool holder: HSK-E50 Tool magazine slots: 60 Electronic Handwheel Infrared probe blowing air through spindle center selectable via M-function Signal lamp NC swivel rotary table 3D quickSET 20-position pallet tower storage and transfer station

Condition: good (used), Please read the technical specifications carefully. If the machine is of interest to you as an investment, we kindly ask that you provide full identification, including a correct phone number and email address, when requesting an offer. DECKEL Milling Machine Toolroom Milling Machine DMU 35 M 3 x 2 axes CNC Milling Machine With SIEMENS 810 D – ShopMill software Year of manufacture: 2001 and 2003 (2 units available) Travel distances (X/Y/Z): 350 x 240 x 340 mm Bdedpexz Rdasfx Aa Dob Spindle speed, stepless: 20 – 6,300 rpm Spindle taper: SK 40 DIN 69871 Clamping bolt: DIN 69872 Drive power: 6.3 / 10 kW (100/40% duty cycle) Torque: 55 / 80 Nm max. Universal swivel/rotary table: 400 x 290 mm Table load: 100 kg Distance spindle nose/table: min./max. 145 / 485 mm Feed rates: 3,000 mm/min Rapid traverse: 5,000 mm/min Input resolution: 0.01 mm Rotary axis range: 360 degrees Swivel range: degrees Total power consumption: kVA Weight: approx. 1,750 kg Technical data subject to change! Accessories/Equipment: - Direct measuring system for 3 axes - Spindle drive via servomotor with toothed belt - 2 gearbox stages - Fully enclosed guard cabin with sliding door - Swiveling control panel - Coolant nozzles at the vertical head - Coolant system - Chip tray with coolant tank - Electronic handwheel - Machine feet - Machine light - Serial RS232C interface, LAN (RJ45) The machine is perfectly suited for prototyping, toolmaking, training, mechanical workshops, gunsmiths, etc. Its outstanding universal capability is thanks to the additional manually operated rotary/swivel table, which allows 5-sided machining. Condition: Good to very good, from a vocational training center, see photos. Can be inspected under power.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2004, functionality: fully functional, Universal machining centre Deckel Maho DMU 50 M with Heidenhain TNC 310 CNC control. Swivel-rotary table, SK 40 spindle taper with hydraulic drawbar. In good working condition, can be inspected under power. Bdsdpfx Aajytpy Es Deb

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 1987, Deckel FP4M tool milling machine with 3-axis Heidenhain digital readout, fixed table, SK 40 spindle taper. Accessories: various collets and milling arbors. Good, ready-to-operate condition. Can be demonstrated under power by arrangement. Bdedpfx Aasxmi I Is Dob

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2016, CNC Control Axes X-axis travel mm: 1050 Y-axis travel mm: 530 Z-axis travel mm: 510 4th axis: DDRT-260X Feed rate m/min: 5 Rapid traverse m/min: 30 Work Table Number of pallets: 1 Table dimensions mm: 1350x600 Maximum workpiece weight kg: 1200 Table surface configuration: 18mm T-slot, 6 units Spindle Spindle speed rpm: 8000 Spindle power kW: 30/22 (25%ED/cont) Spindle torque Nm: 304 Tool System Tool holder: MAS-BT 50 Tool magazine positions: 30 With adjacent positions free mm: 240 With adjacent positions occupied mm: 120 Maximum tool length mm: 350 Maximum tool weight kg: 20 Tool change time s: 2.34 Equipment Chip conveyor Internal coolant supply Rated power kVA: 52 Bdjdpfx Aaeyyc Dle Djb Machine basic dimensions / weight Length mm: 3300 Width mm: 3000 Height mm: 2800 Weight kg: 7700

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1998, operating hours: 15,968 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 500 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 380 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 300 mm, controller model: FANUC 16iM-16i, rotational speed (max.): 8,000 rpm, TECHNICAL DETAILS Travel X-axis: 500 mm Travel Y-axis: 380 mm Travel Z-axis: 300 mm Max. spindle speed: 8,000 rpm Table surface dimensions: 650 x 380 mm Number of tool magazine slots: 14 Tool holder: ISO/BT 30 Rapid traverse: 48 m/min MACHINE DETAILS Control model: FANUC 16iM-16i Power-on hours: 94,768 h Bodpfsyvf Hgox Aa Dedb Cutting hours: 15,968 h Operating hours: 5,146 h Spindle power: 5.5 kW EQUIPMENT Chip container Coolant tank with pump Integrated liquid lubrication system

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1993, Technical details: x-travel: 7000 mm y-travel: 1200 mm z-travel: 1300 mm rapid travel x/y/z: 10 m/min table-size: 8.000 x 1.300 mm table load: max. 4 t/qm universal head: 5x90° plus manuell 1° tool taper: SK 50 milling head speed: 20 - 2.000 1/min power capacity: 30 kW max. torque on the spindle: Getriebe 2 stufig , 750 Nm control: HEIDENHAIN TNC 360 total power requirement: 50 KW dimensions of the machine ca.: 9,0 x 3,8 x 4,6 m weight of the machine ca.: 25,0 t Bedpfx Aeyvfyysa Djdb universal travelling column - universal machining center, orthogonal milling head, water-cooled, with 1° indexing in 2 axis (360 pos. in rear layer, 270 pos. in front layer) 3D touch probe M&H 20.41, dividing wall for 2 table machining, internal air blast, 15bar high pressure pump, prepared for HSC milling heads incl. torque support, moveable operator-cabin/panel, chipconveyor, handwheel HR 410, controlled security fence, miscellaneous accessories (angle milling heads, vices...) on request approx. 39.000h "machine on", approx. 16.000h "spindle on" still under power in closed factory *

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2006, Universal 5 axis Machine Center DMG DMF 250 Linear Year Mfg 2006 Bodpfx Aasx Nmllo Dsdb Heidenhain iTNC530 control Travel X2,500 Y920 Z820mm NC Rotary Chuck _ Hoffmann (A axis) NC B axis -105 ~ 105 degree (Spindle Head) NC C axis 360 degree ATC 30 magazine Spindle 18,000rpm Spindle Taper BT40 Direct Measuring X,Y & Z axis Special Offer

Condition: like new (used), Year of construction: 2024, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 1786, travel distance X-axis: 3,000 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 825 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 1,100 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 30 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 30 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 30 m/min, controller manufacturer: Siemens, controller model: Sinumerik One, table load: 1,500 kg, rotary table diameter: 800 mm, rotational speed (min.): 25 rpm, spindle speed (min.): 20 rpm, spindle speed (max.): 15,000 rpm, coolant supply: 20 bar, number of spindles: 1, tool length: 460 mm, tool diameter: 200 mm, tool weight: 10,000 g, input voltage: 400 V, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, MATEC-30HV X = 3,000 mm Y = 825 mm Z = 1,100 mm / Horizontal Z = 975 mm / Vertical - 1-axis CNC swivel head Swivel radius 300 mm, maximum swivel angle +/- 105 degrees Direct path measuring system +/-3, optionally continuous or settable with clamping Clamping forces: 2,400 Nm unclamped, 4,200 Nm clamped - Bellows with steel lamellae - Direct path measuring system on X, Y, Z axis - Chip conveyor - Rinsing gun - Centralized oil lubrication - Work area lighting - Siemens Sinumerik ONE control Bsdjxg Dhcepfx Aa Dsdb Modern CNC system for highly productive machine tools, consisting of: NCU 1740 22" ITC2200 V3 display MCP 2200 machine control panel - Electronic handwheel (portable) HT2 - Telephone diagnostics / remote maintenance - Motor spindle 15,000 rpm Motor spindle with 30 kW (40% duty cycle) 17 kW (100% duty cycle) Torque 191 Nm (40% duty cycle) 108 Nm (100% duty cycle) - Internal coolant supply 20 bar Tank capacity of paper filter system 900 l Filter capacity 160 l/min. - High-pressure coolant at external nozzles High-pressure coolant pump switchable via M-function in the part program to the external nozzles at the spindle head. #20 bar# - IK-compressed air through the tool - Partition wall for double-station system - 3D wireless probe - RTS table probe for measuring and inspection - UT-Tec collision monitoring - Automatic safety doors

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2005, functionality: fully functional, Direct from toolmaking department: DECKEL MAHO DMU 50 – year of manufacture 2005 – Heidenhain iTNC 530 – 3-axis machine – travels X500 x Y450 x Z400 – SK40 – 8000 rpm – without WW – low operating hours, used only as a standby machine, extremely stable and in top condition, also very well suited as a training machine, minimal space required: 1.70 m wide x 2.00 m deep, for sale only due to lack of space, machining test and geometric measurement welcome. Ex works, free loading. Bdodpfx Asyxy Rtja Djb

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2012, x-travel 850 mm y-travel 700 mm z-travel 500 mm Control Siemens 840 D rotary table 800 mm c-axis 0.001º ( ±360º) 0 B-axis (table) º mm number of spindle speeds 18.000 U/min/rpm tool taper HSK 63 Tools changer 38 fach/tools Internal cooling system 80 bar Bdsdpfx Ajyxy E Rsa Dsb total power requirement 43 kVA weight of the machine ca. 10,6 t Equipment- Paper belt filter – 200 l tank- Active control cabinet cooling- Infrared probe M&H (Heidenhain)- Laser tool measuring system Blum- Chip conveyor- Cleaning pistol with pump 2 bar / 40 l min- 3D Quick Set- Electronic handwheel

Condition: refurbished (used), Year of construction: 2015, functionality: fully functional, We offer this overhauled HAAS TR210 rotary/tilting table, year of manufacture 2015. The TR210 is a two-axis rotary/tilting table with tailstock, providing maximum rigidity and precise performance for 3+2 and full 5-axis machining of small to medium-sized parts. Encoders on the A-axis (tilt axis) improve positioning and repeatability accuracy. The TR210 fits VF-3 and larger machines from the VF series (the extended Z-axis clearance option is highly recommended). The table has been overhauled and serviced. All worn spare parts, seals, and O-rings have been replaced. Bedoyxw Ayepfx Aa Dsdb We can provide a video upon request showing flawless machining. If you have any questions or need further information, please feel free to send us a message or call us.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2014, x-travel 600 mm y-travel 500 mm z-travel 500 mm total power requirement --- kW weight of the machine ca. 9,6 t Bdodpfx Aoycxinea Deb dimensions of the machine ca. --- m